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knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

1

Friday, December 7th 2012, 9:26am

[SOLVED]Linux: Unable to connect to J-Link on board nRF51822 Evaluation Kit

When running JLinkExe to connect to my nRF51822 Evaluation Kit which has a J-Link on board, I get this output:

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knuta@klure ~/Downloads/JLink_Linux_V456d $ ./JLinkExe       
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.56d ('?' for help)
Compiled Nov 16 2012 16:48:44
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.


The funny thing is that it seems to detect the device:

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J-Link>ShowEmuList
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: *********, USB address: 0


According to the docs provided by Nordic, I should use the SW port with a speed of 1 MHz, so I try to set that and select the device again:

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J-Link>si 1
Selecting SWD as current target interface.
Setting target interface speed to 1MHz. Use "Speed" to change.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: *********, USB address: 0
Select emulator index: 0
Emulator with USB serial number ********* selected.
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.


Am I missing a setting or something? The “Can not connect” message gives no hint of what could be wrong.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "knuta" (Dec 25th 2012, 3:59am)


knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

2

Tuesday, December 25th 2012, 4:05am

After finally succeeding with connecting to the J-Link in Windows, this is what I get from JLink.exe on the exact same hardware, except I have booted into Windows Vista instead of Linux:

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SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.58a ('?' for help)
Compiled Dec  5 2012 18:38:27
DLL version V4.58a, compiled Dec  5 2012 18:38:08
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Nov  5 2012 19:42:53
Hardware: V1.00  
S/N: *********
VTarget = 3.300V 
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.
Cortex-M0 identified.
JTAG speed: 100 kHz
J-Link>


It seems obvious that there is some kind of software or configuration issue in my Linux setup, but I don't know what could be wrong. Especially since the J-Link does show up in the emulator list in Linux as well.

I have tried version 4.58 on Linux too, with the same results as before.

vonkil

Beginner

Date of registration: Dec 26th 2012

Posts: 8

3

Thursday, January 3rd 2013, 7:13am

I'd like to add my voice to the request to Segger to address the support under Linux (and OSX) for the Nordic board.

I have a few other things to report as well. First, I can also confirm that the OSX Jlink tools fail similarly to the Linux ones:

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$ ./JLinkExe.command 
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.58 ('?' for help)
Compiled Nov 29 2012 14:42:36
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>showemulist
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
J-Link>si 1
Selecting SWD as current target interface.
Setting target interface speed to 1MHz. Use "Speed" to change.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>



I can also verify that Linux permissions are not the issue, because for example using OpenOCD on Linux (patched to support the new USB idVendor:idProduct=1366:0105):

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Info : J-Link initialization started / target CPU reset initiated
Info : J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Aug  1 2012 10:57:06
Info : J-Link caps 0xb97f5bbf
Info : J-Link hw version 14010000
Info : J-Link hw type uknown 0xe
Info : J-Link max mem block 25136
Info : J-Link configuration
Info : USB-Address: 0x0


Further, I contacted Nordic, and the engineer reported: "However, there seems to be some issues with JLink and on-board chips with CDC functionality, as used on the nRF51822 Evaluation Kit." He also suggested to contact Segger and request support.


Any update on this, Segger folks?

SEGGER - Alex

Super Moderator

Date of registration: Dec 18th 2007

Posts: 1,516

4

Monday, January 7th 2013, 7:27pm

Hi,

The problem has been fixed in V4.59d of the Mac OS X version.
A new Linux version will follow within the next days.


Best regards
Alex

vonkil

Beginner

Date of registration: Dec 26th 2012

Posts: 8

5

Wednesday, January 9th 2013, 8:16am

Thanks Alex, looks like the Nordic board comes up in OSX. However, one still has to manually select the device with "selemu" with no arguments and then select (say) zero. The "selemu 0" command does not work. I cannot get the GDBServer to work yet but I suspect once the JLinkExe startup is figured, the GDB server should follow. At any rate this is a good step forward. Looking forward to the Linux support as well.

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

6

Wednesday, January 9th 2013, 8:19am

Awesome! Let me also point out the solution to a problem I encountered while investigating, in case others experience the same thing and need some pointers. I straced the JlinkExe process and saw this:

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open("/dev/bus/usb/001/010", O_RDWR)    = 4
ioctl(4, USBDEVFS_CLAIMINTERFACE, 0xbf883784) = -1 EBUSY (Device or resource busy)
write(3, "\n  ***** Error: ", 16)       = 16
write(3, "Can not connect to J-Link via US"..., 34) = 34


What happens here is that the device is busy because another driver has claimed it. Looking in dmesg, I saw this:

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[217129.656127] usb 1-6: new high-speed USB device number 14 using ehci_hcd
[217129.789442] usb 1-6: New USB device found, idVendor=1366, idProduct=0105
[217129.789452] usb 1-6: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
[217129.789459] usb 1-6: Product: J-Link
[217129.789465] usb 1-6: Manufacturer: SEGGER
[217129.789470] usb 1-6: SerialNumber: (omitted)
[217129.812561] cdc_acm 1-6:1.0: This device cannot do calls on its own. It is not a modem.
[217129.812713] cdc_acm 1-6:1.0: ttyACM0: USB ACM device
[217129.814803] usbcore: registered new interface driver cdc_acm
[217129.814808] cdc_acm: USB Abstract Control Model driver for USB modems and ISDN adapters


The nRF51822 is clearly not a modem, but it seems the Linux kernel thinks the USB serial port it exposes is one. This blocks the device so JlinkExe cannot access it, and instead of saying “Device is busy” as it should, it just says failed to connect. This can be solved easily by unloading the cdc_acm driver using modprobe -r or rmmod, and you can avoid it happening again by banning the driver in the modprobe configuration.

After unloading cdc_acm I got this instead:

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ioctl(4, USBDEVFS_SUBMITURB or USBDEVFS_SUBMITURB32, 0xbfd1bbb8) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)


Which basically means that the wrong endpoint number is being used. I'm sure that is what is being fixed in the upcoming version.

Let me just say that I would really appreciate if JlinkExe could just print out informative error messages instead of just saying “failed”. Not all users are savvy enough to strace the process to figure out that the device is busy.

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

7

Wednesday, January 9th 2013, 8:36am

Thanks Alex, looks like the Nordic board comes up in OSX. However, one still has to manually select the device with "selemu" with no arguments and then select (say) zero. The "selemu 0" command does not work.


Actually, the argument is just the interfaces to seach on, not the number itself. I don't know the syntax for an interface, or even what an interface is in this context, since this is unspecified in the documentation.

It would actually be very nice if the syntax could be modified to allow the parameter as an argument somehow, though. This way, it could be put in a script. I just tested putting selemu in a JLink script, and just adding “0” on the next line didn't work. It just prompted me for a number.

SEGGER - Alex

Super Moderator

Date of registration: Dec 18th 2007

Posts: 1,516

8

Wednesday, January 9th 2013, 8:42am

Hi,

Quoted

Thanks Alex, looks like the Nordic board comes up in OSX. However, one still has to manually select the device with "selemu" with no arguments and then select (say) zero. The "selemu 0" command does not work

I do not know what you mean...
If you have one J-Link connected to the Mac (e.g. the J-Link OB on the NordicSemi board), J-Link Commander will automatically connect to it. No need of any additional commands.

Quoted

Actually, the argument is just the interfaces to seach on, not the number itself. I don't know the syntax for an interface, or even what an interface is in this context, since this is unspecified in the documentation.

Seems there is some lack of documentation here.
[Interface] means the host interfaces to search on for J-Links.
Currently supported host interfaces: USB, IP

Sample: selemu usb // Only shows emulators that are connected to the host via USB
Sample: selemu ip // only shows emulators that are connected to the host via IP

To select a specific emulator to connect to at startup of J-Link Commander (see chapter 3.2.1.1 of UM08001):

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JLinkExe -SelectEmuBySN 580011111  // Connect to J-Link with serial number 580011111
JLinkExe -IP 192.168.1.17 // Connect to J-Link with IP 192.168.1.17 via ethernet.


NOTE: Having multiple J-Links connected via USB to the same PC at the same time is currently supported under Windows only. For Mac/Linux this is officially not supported yet (has not been fully tested).


Best regards
Alex

vonkil

Beginner

Date of registration: Dec 26th 2012

Posts: 8

9

Thursday, January 10th 2013, 6:18am

Yes, it's true I am unfamiliar with the arguments accepted by the JLinkExe application. One cannot even get a list of this arguments with "JLinkExe --help", and I was unable to find an exhaustive list of possible arguments (only a few appear to be listed in UM08003).

However, my original point stands. On OSX, with no arguments the board is not found.

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$ ./JLinkExe
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.59d ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:12
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0DLL version V4.59d, compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:09
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Jan  7 2013 18:12:29
Hardware: V1.00
S/N: 480200656 
VTarget = 3.300V
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.Cortex-M0 identified.
JTAG speed: 100 kHz
J-Link>exit



The same is true when using the '-SelectEmuBySN' argument.

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$ ./JLinkExe -SelectEmuBySN 480200656
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.59d ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:12
Could not find emulator with USB serial number 480200656.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0
DLL version V4.59d, compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:09
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Jan  7 2013 18:12:29
Hardware: V1.00
S/N: 480200656
VTarget = 3.300V
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.
Cortex-M0 identified.
JTAG speed: 100 kHz
J-Link>exit



As you can see, there appears to be some trouble in determining the serial number at the USB level.

Thanks,
Chris Kilgour

Date of registration: Jan 10th 2013

Posts: 4

10

Thursday, January 10th 2013, 1:57pm

Linux version of JLinkExe

The problem has been fixed in V4.59d of the Mac OS X version.
A new Linux version will follow within the next days.
Hi Alex,

Please post a message as soon as the Linux version is available. I just discovered this forum, and I too have been wrestling for some time trying to get JLink to work natively on Linux to connect to a Nordic nRF51822 evaluation board. I also have been trying to get it to work with Windows Vista (running as a QEMU guest) to no avail. In that case I suppose the problem can be either on the Linux side or the Windows side.

Thanks.

--ken

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

11

Thursday, January 10th 2013, 9:09pm

RE: Linux version of JLinkExe

I also have been trying to get it to work with Windows Vista (running as a QEMU guest) to no avail. In that case I suppose the problem can be either on the Linux side or the Windows side.


I have it working in Vista, but had to do some hacks to be able to install the driver. See JLink CDC driver installer does not work in Windows Vista for my solution.

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

12

Monday, January 14th 2013, 7:35am


The problem has been fixed in V4.59d of the Mac OS X version.
A new Linux version will follow within the next days.


That's great! However, I still seem to have some problems connecting to the board under OS X. Where Chris Kilgour got this:


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$ ./JLinkExe
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.59d ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:12
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0DLL version V4.59d, compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:09
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Jan  7 2013 18:12:29
Hardware: V1.00
S/N: 480200656 
VTarget = 3.300V
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.Cortex-M0 identified.
JTAG speed: 100 kHz
J-Link>exit



I get this:

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knuta@knuta-mbp ~/JLink_MacOSX_V459d $ ./JLinkExe.command 
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.59d ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:12
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0
DLL version V4.59d, compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:09
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Jan  7 2013 18:12:29
Hardware: V1.00
S/N: (redacted) 
VTarget = 3.300V
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
No device found on SWD.
Did not find any core.
Failed to identify target. Trying again with slow (4 kHz) speed.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
No device found on SWD.
Did not find any core.


I'm not sure what is different between mine and Chris' setup, but I doubt my board is broken because it works fine from Windows Vista. I am using a 15" MacBook Pro with Retina Display running OS X Mountain Lion, in case that matters. My libusb is the latest from MacPorts.

vonkil

Beginner

Date of registration: Dec 26th 2012

Posts: 8

13

Monday, January 14th 2013, 8:50am

My earlier, partly-working report on OSX was for a Macbook running Lion v10.7.5. Using libusb 1.0.9 from macports.

SEGGER - Alex

Super Moderator

Date of registration: Dec 18th 2007

Posts: 1,516

14

Monday, January 14th 2013, 9:54am

Hi,

Quoted

That's great! However, I still seem to have some problems connecting to the board under OS X. Where Chris Kilgour got this:

The nRF51 from NordicSemi needs special handling, so J-Link needs to know the device.
Please try again with the following command sequence (without quotes):

"si 1" // Select SWD as interface
"device nRF51822"


Best regards
Alex

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

15

Tuesday, January 15th 2013, 6:41am

Thank you Alex, but that did not seem to make any difference in this case. The output suggests it only selects memory options. I suspect this will be useful when flashing, but currently I'm struggling with finding the CPU at all.

Date of registration: Jan 10th 2013

Posts: 4

16

Friday, January 18th 2013, 4:23am

Linux version of JLinkExe

Hello Alex,

Just checking on the status of the Linux version of JLinkExe. I would be happy to volunteer to do whatever testing on it I can do for you--I'm using gentoo on an x86_64 platform.

I've attached an strace of JLinkExe startup on my machine; maybe it can help. It opens the Segger device on the USB interface and then appears to get stuck attempting to complete a USBDEVFS_SUBMITURB system call.

--ken
kalauffenburger has attached the following file:
  • JLinkExe.txt (38.57 kB - 1,413 times downloaded - Last download: Today, 7:14am)

vonkil

Beginner

Date of registration: Dec 26th 2012

Posts: 8

17

Sunday, January 20th 2013, 3:31am

Also still waiting for a Linux update supporting the nRF51822. I can test on Fedora and RHEL, both 32- and 64-bit.

Also anticipating an update to OSX to fix the startup problems, ie. it does not find the emulator until the manual 'selemu' command is invoked.

hacor

Beginner

Date of registration: Jan 8th 2013

Posts: 1

18

Sunday, January 20th 2013, 10:44pm

Also waiting for the linux version update with nRF51822 support, can test Ubuntu 64bit system.

Best regards

riblankman

Beginner

Date of registration: Jan 21st 2013

Posts: 4

19

Monday, January 21st 2013, 6:49pm

RAMCode for nRF51822?

Hello,

I am using the JLink Commander V4.60 for Mac OSX. Below is my attempt to program an nRF51822. If I don't specify "device nRF51822", nothing is written to memory when I execute loadbin. If I specify "device nRF51822", then memory is written to but I get the error "****** Error: Failed to prepare for programming. Failed to execute RAMCode for RAM check!" Has anyone successfully use J-Link Commander to load the soft_device into memory starting at address 0x00000, program code starting at 0x20000, and successfully run a BLE program on the nRF51822?

Here's a full account of my J-Link Commander session.

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SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.60 ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan 14 2013 10:51:35
DLL version V4.60, compiled Jan 14 2013 10:51:31
Firmware: J-Link Pro V4 compiled Nov 19 2012 15:15:02
Hardware: V4.00
S/N: 174200017 
Feature(s): RDI, FlashBP, FlashDL, JFlash, GDB 
VTarget = 1.864V
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.
Found 1 JTAG device, Total IRLen = 4:
Cortex-M0 identified.
JTAG speed: 100 kHz
J-Link>h
R0 = FFFFFFFF, R1 = FFFFFFFF, R2 = FFFFFFFF, R3 = FFFFFFFF
R4 = FFFFFFFF, R5 = FFFFFFFF, R6 = FFFFFFFF, R7 = FFFFFFFF
R8 = FFFFFFFF, R9 = FFFFFFFF, R10= FFFFFFFF, R11= FFFFFFFF
R12= FFFFFFFF, R13= FFFFFFFC, MSP= FFFFFFFC, PSP= FFFFFFFC
R14(LR) = FFFFFFFF, R15(PC) = FFFFFFFE
XPSR = C1000000, APSR = C0000000, EPSR = 01000000, IPSR = 00000000
CFBP = 00000000, CONTROL = 00, FAULTMASK = 00, BASEPRI = 00, PRIMASK = 00
CycleCnt = 00000000
J-Link>loadbin /Users/roy/Documents/hello/firmware-band/S110_nRF51822_3.0.0-1.beta_softdevice.hex 0x0000
Loading binary file... [/Users/roy/Documents/hello/firmware-band/S110_nRF51822_3.0.0-1.beta_softdevice.hex]
Writing bin data into target memory @ 0x00000000.
J-Link>mem 0x00000 10
00000000 = FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 
J-Link>device nRF51822
Info: Device "NRF51822" selected (256 KB flash, 8 KB RAM).
Reconnecting to target...
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: FPUnit: 4 code (BP) slots and 0 literal slots
Info: Found Cortex-M0 r0p0, Little endian.
J-Link>h
R0 = FFFFFFFF, R1 = FFFFFFFF, R2 = FFFFFFFF, R3 = FFFFFFFF
R4 = FFFFFFFF, R5 = FFFFFFFF, R6 = FFFFFFFF, R7 = FFFFFFFF
R8 = FFFFFFFF, R9 = FFFFFFFF, R10= FFFFFFFF, R11= FFFFFFFF
R12= FFFFFFFF, R13= FFFFFFFC, MSP= FFFFFFFC, PSP= FFFFFFFC
R14(LR) = FFFFFFFF, R15(PC) = FFFFFFFE
XPSR = C1000000, APSR = C0000000, EPSR = 01000000, IPSR = 00000000
CFBP = 00000000, CONTROL = 00, FAULTMASK = 00, BASEPRI = 00, PRIMASK = 00
CycleCnt = 00000000
J-Link>h
R0 = FFFFFFFF, R1 = FFFFFFFF, R2 = FFFFFFFF, R3 = FFFFFFFF
R4 = FFFFFFFF, R5 = FFFFFFFF, R6 = FFFFFFFF, R7 = FFFFFFFF
R8 = FFFFFFFF, R9 = FFFFFFFF, R10= FFFFFFFF, R11= FFFFFFFF
R12= FFFFFFFF, R13= FFFFFFFC, MSP= FFFFFFFC, PSP= FFFFFFFC
R14(LR) = FFFFFFFF, R15(PC) = FFFFFFFE
XPSR = C1000000, APSR = C0000000, EPSR = 01000000, IPSR = 00000000
CFBP = 00000000, CONTROL = 00, FAULTMASK = 00, BASEPRI = 00, PRIMASK = 00
CycleCnt = 00000000
J-Link>loadbin /Users/roy/Documents/hello/firmware-band/S110_nRF51822_3.0.0-1.beta_softdevice.hex 0x0000
Loading binary file... [/Users/roy/Documents/hello/firmware-band/S110_nRF51822_3.0.0-1.beta_softdevice.hex]
Writing bin data into target memory @ 0x00000000.

****** Error: Failed to prepare for programming.
Failed to execute RAMCode for RAM check!

knuta

Beginner

Date of registration: Nov 25th 2012

Posts: 26

20

Tuesday, January 22nd 2013, 5:06am


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knuta@knuta-mbp ~/JLink_MacOSX_V459d $ ./JLinkExe.command 
SEGGER J-Link Commander V4.59d ('?' for help)
Compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:12
Can not connect to J-Link via USB.
J-Link>selemu
J-Link[0]: Connection: USB, Serial number: 0, USB address: -257
Select emulator index: 0
DLL version V4.59d, compiled Jan  7 2013 19:12:09
Firmware: J-Link OB-SAM3U128 V1 compiled Jan  7 2013 18:12:29
Hardware: V1.00
S/N: (redacted) 
VTarget = 3.300V
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
No device found on SWD.
Did not find any core.
Failed to identify target. Trying again with slow (4 kHz) speed.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
Info: Could not measure total IR len. TDO is constant high.
No devices found on JTAG chain. Trying to find device on SWD.
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
Info: Found SWD-DP with ID 0x0BB11477
No device found on SWD.
Did not find any core.



For what it's worth, this still happens on version 4.60 as well. As mentioned, this is OS X Mountain Lion, and libusb is the latest from macports. I have also verified that the board still works under Windows Vista, so I doubt it is hardware error. Is there anything I could do to try to determine what the cause is?